welcome to september 07 vertigo!  we are extra excited about this month's topic because it hits a place near and dear to our hearts--the ability to dialogue instead of debate, offer love & respect instead of judgement & condemnation when others don't believe the same things we believe. being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be a judgemental, arrogant jackass whose sole purpose is to tell others of their wrong thinking.  ok, so some of you are saying "well, wait a minute, Jesus told us we need to speak the truth, share the gospel, not water it down."  we understand the dilemma, we feel it, too.  and that's the big idea here--how do we live out the ways of Jesus, really?  can't we learn to be better listeners, lovers of all people?  what does this mean for the "church'? for the refuge?  for each of us? 

MATT: Ummm.  I have been engaging people in talks about such questions-is there God? Why are we here? What should we do?-for years. In the book, you see that first I met Jason, who runs a home church, and we became friends. Then, through him, I met Jim, and we ended up writing a book together. I was motivated by the same  reasons I am motivated to travel, to read as much as possible, to write music: I knew it would be a learning experience, and I knew I would have fun, too.

thinking back on your travels together, what surprised you the most?

JIM: How fair Matt was in his assessments of Christians--not a surprise as in a BIG surprise but as in a pleasant surprise. Also on how much we agreed on.

MATT: How much we agreed on. See? We just did it again! Also, Jim used to play in a few bands ("We were like 'The Beatles' of Mexico City. . . "). The biggest surprise was how quickly Jim and I established a rapport. . . within about a few hours, we were holding nothing back.

of course, your trip was limited to short visits into churches for an hour or so service.  if you had really hung out in the community for a longer period of time, what do you think you may have discovered?

JIM: If we could have located them, we would have seen numbers of ordinary people serving non-Christians in ordinary ways. Unfortunately due to the economic pressures (as in justifying the pastor/speaker's salary)  put on churches there is little to no time to feature these ordinary people every weekend.

MATT: I would (and here's my bias) probably have been disappointed as--based on some conversations I've had with more than a few Christians--a lot of people seem to think being a Christian requires little more than a 10% donation and an hour on Sunday. However, I did attend a small group at a local Baptist church where people talked about how to apply what they learned in that day's sermon, but it was kind of meandering and no real "action items" came out of it.

what is the hardest part for each of you to understand about the other person's belief system? what has surprised you the most about the others person's beliefs? what has offended you? encouraged you?

JIM: I don't find atheism hard to understand. I think it is a common sense and reasonable conclusion to come to if you are limited to measuring using our five senses. Further I think that a reasonable and maybe even a compassionate person (Christians call them humanists as if it is a dirty word) would certainly find it ludicrous to believe in any god currently sponsored by the major world religions. I mean they are pretty weird--including the religion known as Christianity. Having said that,  I find atheism to be very difficult to believe in. I have had too many experiences in life that are transrational, loving and lovely to not raise my suspicions that there is a God out there who is at least as good as I can be (on my good days). Besides whether or not Jesus is objectively true or real I would like him to be and since I don't find anything particularly compelling or interesting about atheism (which could also be a reflection of my lack of intellect) I will stick with the Jesus story and look forward to falling into his arms when this rat race is finally over. There just has to be a place called heaven--this place is just too screwed up. I can't believe that this is the end. . .  sorry.

MATT: This is the question we don't discuss in the book, but purposefully. It's not that we avoid it. It's just that. . .  well, what's the point? If you want me to learn about your beliefs, show me how you live. Jim and Jason and all my believing friends know that I think believing in supernatural gods is really quite strange when you stop to think about it. But what encouraged me was hearing Jim freely agree ("Yes,  I see how you think it could be very strange. . . ") and not try to tell me I was wrong. And I never said he was wrong, either, because, in my opinion, when it comes to what you believe it's subjective and cannot be proven or disproven, so why bother. . . ? Ask questions, get to know a person, be free of an agenda beyond, pursue "I'd like to know what you think."  Nothing Jim did offended me as he answered every question from an honest place. Who could ask for anything more? I came away from all of this encouraged, because American Christians-in spite of the fact they worship one of the most peaceful men who ever lived-can get quite vitriolic and violent while discussing their beliefs. Jim didn't and doesn't.

what is the best thing you have learned from being in relationship with one another?   

MATT: Being friends with Jim has made me a much more honest and grounded atheist. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Jim and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others. Also, being friends with Jim has changed how I see the world. I was never an "angry atheist" like so many high profile authors we hear about today--Dawkins, Hitchens. et al. (I think they are "anti-theists" not atheists as their books seem to be about how there is no God, not about how living with no God can be a good thing.)  I am now so much more in touch with how I see the world, and I remain as open as ever to the fact that I may be wrong about there not being a god. Some would say that makes me an agnostic, but the fact about gods is that no one can prove or disprove their existence. Thus, we never know (until we're dead). And so, aren't we all agnostic with tendencies toward either belief or non belief? I never asked myself these kinds of questions or crystallized these kinds of thoughts until I met and traveled with Jim Henderson. I am glad to know him.

the reason we invited you guys to come to denver is we believe in your project.  we are listening.  as Christians, we really want to be people who ask ourselves the hard questions--how did our reputation become so crazy? what has the church become?  why is it so hard for us to live alongside people who disagree?  we of course are hoping there will be a wide range of people at these conversations, across faiths,  no faith, ages & experiences.  so, as you prepare to come here to denver, what  are you guys hoping the conversation will do for those who come?

JIM: Move them to connect with someone they think of as "the other" or as "an outsider" and become great question askers.

MATT: Help people return to treating faith as faith, and not as fact. In the book, I close with wishing people would stop staying, "Be a Christian or go to hell" and start saying, "We follow Jesus, and here's what we do and how it has helped us."

so, everyone, we hope this gave you a small taste of our conversation.  this is definitely one to invite your friends to.  they will be at the refuge on sunday, september 16^th at 5:30 pm.  we are also hosting them at two other locations to give as many people as possible the chance to participate. . .  CU boulder on friday night the 14^th and at pathways church on saturday morning .  all of the details are below or on the web.